Woke up to the 19th Century this morning????
Submitted by mminnoe on October 10, 2009 - 11:13am
Woke up to the 19th Century this morning????
Jackson Cty leaders just can't give up on all the federal $$$$$ they can get with a rail system???
It's dated idea and it won't work, but there is a TON of federal grant $$$$$$$$$$
They can get and they don't want to pass it by???
This idea makes more since than the Six Flags ride up and down main street in KC, but the problems are the basic's… For a rail system to work there has to be a great Bus system at each end???? Our Busses suck? Indep won't spend any money on them.
Next these trains DON"T go any where people want to go? They did 80 years ago but not today…
The last and biggest problem, "PEOPLE DON'T GIVE UP THEIR CARS"
We live in a spot where we do NOT pay for parking and we love our Cars?
The idea has some merit, but its like the Rocket we just shot at the Moon?
We need to fix our problems close to home, 1/2 the paper today is filled with how bad off we are taking care of our poor? Lets spend our Train $$$$$$ on that?
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Back when I was hale and hardy and of somewhat sound mind, I consulted on the transit systems in Omaha, Springfield and Kansas City. Both Omaha and Springfield at that time had a system superior to KC. KC's problem then is as it is now. It serves areas no body wants to go and doesn't serve areas that are desired. To improve the system will require more money than we want to spend and take more time than we care to devote. To be truly effective it requires a mix of high speed ecpress service from the out skirts, an interlocked system of light rail, and a comprehensive network of feeder busses. Just the planning for the system could take years, construction could take decades and public support may take another decade to gain. The plans I have seen talked about recently all are piecemeal, a little here and a little there. I don't think that will be effective without a massive influx of subsidies to cover operational losses. If you are going to do it, commit to the whole shebang and do it. Don't try to nickle and dime it. That won't work.
Keep an eye on the paper. We'll have more on this issue Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Thanks for the feedback.
Jeff Fox, opinion page editor, The Examiner, jeff.fox@examiner.net, 816-350-6313
.......I'm liking the idea the more I hear.....probably reversing my stance.........but unless we get the money from Uncle Sam it's a moot point isn't it?..........not much to talk about really.........we definitely can't afford it without a "hand out"..........it's nice to finally hear a little vision that isn't Chastain oriented.......I could never get behind Clay's plans.............Sanders plan sounds pretty good if it's a feasible as they make it sound..............a billion bucks IS a LOT of money , but the way Barry is printing it and handing it out , we might as well get on the "gravy train"............maybe when we're broke we can take the train to "Family Services".........we are SO behind other cities in mass transit..........it's tantalizing to think there is a possiblity we could actually take advantage of existing lines and make the connections they are talking about.............I applaud Mike Sanders for his vision........my main objection is the affordability..............so until we have the rail car full of money ?...........it's all just speculation.........hopes and dreams..............when could they find out if we could get a slice of the pie?........that I'm sure certain cities are getting the largest pieces of...............is it a gift?...............how can THAT be?...........even if it WERE a loan.............KC and Independence never have any money anyway.......what's the difference if we're broke without a train or broke WITH a train?..................people , cities ,cities ,states and countries have money for things they make a priority..............the argument of "we can't afford it" must have been made thousands of times with issues like these............and how many times has that proven to be wrong?.......and people go "wow , what if so & so hadn't had THAT vision?"..............this COULD be" one of those things" , that the naysayers are wrong about.............I see a HUGE benefit for residents.............at least this is something that would actually benefit a LOT of people........unlike an $86,000,000.00 hockey arena.........no offense to hockey fans.............and several cities would benefit in the county..............I read today's article in the Examiner about the commuter rail .........with enthusiasm...........but with reservations...........the pitch is good..........is the execution feasible?..............maybe .......just maybe.......... we're still in the 19th century if we DON'T do it....................
eldoggg
I agree there needs to be more facts presented of the comprehensive plan. To make a judgement based on no more than has been submitted Saturday is premature. I view this as possibly a long range vision rather than the 2-5 year vision that appears more politically fashionable today
No comment on how to make the Metro successful. Perhaps it's time to rethink how to pull off the bus thing off, with routes and buses and such.
"Next these trains DON"T go any where people want to go?" - aside from KCI, The Kansas Speedway, Downtown Kansas City, The Independence Center, and I think a line goes to the Zoo (or at least it should go to Starlight/The Zoo)
The KCI line should be helpful for people who want to go to the Airport without using the parking facilities there and for people who arrive at KCI and want to avoid renting a car for whatever reason.
"PEOPLE DON'T GIVE UP THEIR CARS" - Yeah, some people park their cars at the Independence station to go on Amtrak, but if one can pull it off, they should just get a ride there and back.
I used Amtrak multiple times this year to go from Independence to Jeff City. The pluses of that involve avoiding a 3 hour drive, not worrying about parking, and listening to music on headphones.
Amtrak's results don't exactly set a high bar for success, but there's some stuff that can be learned from them too. Would also help if it's easier to buy tickets in person for MetroRail than Amtrak. Not that I didn't enjoy going to Union Station to buy Amtrak tickets but i'd also like it if the stations were staffed.
In all honesty, a rail system is more beneficial for getting people to areas that are not great parking locations than getting them to their workplaces.
lirene......I don't think anybody is against trains...I'm ALL for mass transit.......like cities like Boston , New York City , Chicago , Tokyo .....blah.....blah...blah........there's a BIG difference between "parking your car" to take Amtrak to Jeff City and being able to metriculate around the greater KC metropolitan area by light rail.......it's not economically feasible at this LATE stage of the game......this city is designed for cars with it's "highways & by ways"..........people driving their giant SUV's with no passengers...........we have become accustomed to our cars without the high price of parking that plagues cities like New York.....where a monthly parking fee is more than rent is here...........I wish KC DID have rail or bus lines that were efficient........to take you to and from all those places you mentioned.............your comparison of our observations to "your parking your car and taking Amtrak to Jeff City ?"...........was quite frankly a "flawed inequitable comparison"...............it's INCREDIBLY expensive at a BILLION dollars to start "light rail" now............the plan for downtown was a joke and a waste of money...........we built our airport outside of the city........that decision was made........so to try and provide rail for a few passengers out to the airport would be a waste of resources..........trains aren't economically feasible....at a BILLION DOLLAR PRICE TAG?........Uncle Sam isn't gonna GIVE us a billion dollars of his monopoly money.....and we could never pay it back........... they're always WAY off on their cost proposals.......and they're telling me that an1/8 cent sales tax increase will run it?.........ROFL............I'll admit the article got me salivating at the idea.......using existing rails.....but I'm not a believer in what they're selling....KC is broke........they can't even educate their kids properly......although I'm not SURE that IS entirely the city's fault.......I think parents are at fault.......... anyway..............the best thing KC and the surrounding areas COULD do is coordinate their bus systems to work with each other in a more timely and user friendly fashion.........more people might use our Metro more if it didn't take 2 hours to go from Independence to Blue Springs...........so I reiterate................KC is decades late and hundreds of millions of dollars short on this "rail issue".......it has about as much merit as digging subway tunnels around the city.................why isn't there federal grant money to improve the mass transit that we DO have?............another wasteful grant...........nobel in concept but flawed in execution........maybe one of Al Gore's buddies thought it up somewhere in D.C.............somebody who had NO idea what KC even LOOKS like.............for a few cities with extra cash laying around , matching funds to these grants might be feasible..........but not for us............if I remember correctly Mayor Funkhauser tried to reneg on some promises to Arrowhead because we're so broke........Independence govt is so broke that it can't pay attention..........we need special elections to fund basic services like law enforcement.........and you htink "light rail" in ANY form is feasible?..........ROFL...................I wish it were.........but reality check here......if the city can't provide decent Metro service to it's citizens then how on earth do you think they would be able to integrate light rail efficiently?.........even if it was FREE........lol.................what I see are a bunch of guys who see an opportunity to line their pockets with federal money doing feasibility studies and whatnot................but we DO appreciate your opinion AND your blog..........it's always good to hear a different blogger and/or a different opinion........please come back lirene................
eldoggg
"lirene......I don't think anybody is against trains...I'm ALL for mass transit.......like cities like Boston , New York City , Chicago , Tokyo .....blah.....blah...blah........"
cities which obviously weren't designed for cards like KC
"there's a BIG difference between "parking your car" to take Amtrak to Jeff City and being able to metriculate around the greater KC metropolitan area by light rail"
Yeah, for one thing, it'll be less expensive and quicker to get from the station on Pacific to downtown KC on the medium rail. It wouldn't involve leaving your car in an unattended lot for 14 hours (which is not optimal for obvious reasons).
As for my Amtrak story. I could contribute a Indep-to-KC Amtrak story, but I've never been inspired to go to Union Station by rail when I can do it by getting in my car. But picking between 6 hours of driving total and parking with a meter somewhere in Jeff City.. and spending $40ish for Amtrak. Amtrak wins (a rare use of that 2 word phrase).
"this city is designed for cars with it's "highways & by ways""
which is why a big portion of the highways were created in the 1950s long after the design of most major cities in the Metro. The city was definitely reshaped by interstate highways. It'd take a more detailed plan to determine how much new construction would be needed to fit the system into the city and how much of it would involve things that somehow survived "in the city designed for cars".
(not to mention that if the city was designed for cars, they wouldn't have had trolleys in any form. They merely chose to scrap that and renovate the city back in the era when the KCMO powers-that-be were getting things moved out of downtown)
It's not like this is a rail plan to take you from your house to McDonalds, or things that can be handled far better by getting in your car.
"we have become accustomed to our cars without the high price of parking that plagues cities like New York"
If you drove on 23rd from Sterling to Lee's Summit Road, you'd go about 3 miles. Manhattan Island from the Hudson River to the East River is around 2 to 2 1/2 miles. I'd imagine the high price of everything in New York has something to do with putting 1.6 million people on an island that you can almost entirely fit in Independence.
"I wish KC DID have rail or bus lines that were efficient........to take you to and from all those places you mentioned"
You know the thing about most of the places I mentioned? they're on the map in the article in the newspaper. It's not like this is a huge plan that only has point A and point B. If it includes the Speedway, KCI, Downtown, the Zoo, the Center, then it's a relatively big deal.
"it's INCREDIBLY expensive to start from scratch now in 2010 with "light rail" in KC"
You didn't read the parts about using existing lines, did you? It would cost more than $1B to build the entire infrastructure. But those costs go down a bit if the building involves stations and connections from one line to another.
"we built our airport outside of the city........that decsion was made........so to try to run rail out to it now is RIDICULOUS"
It'd be more ridiculous if KCI were closer to the city and building a line out there would involve more inconvienice to people in the way. Would you prefer driving to KCI, parking you car in the garage for a week or so. Or riding to KCI, and not having to worry or pay for the parking? If done right, using that part of the system will save people money.
"the best thing KC and the surrounding areas COULD do is coordinate their bus systems to work with each other in a more timely and user friendly fashion"
that's not exactly saying a lot for good things that can be done if the best thing involves a variant of cat herding.
"more people might use it if it didn't take 2 hours to go from Independence to Blue Springs"
How many people are holding back on the Metro because it won't take them to Blue Springs, I don't know. I haven't had the chance to ride the Metro into KC to compare the time and see if that would make people angry.
Perhaps the fact that the system is uncoordinated, unorganized, and possibly seriously flawed keeps people of the buses. And there's just a chunk of people who will choose a passenger train over a bus because buses have a reputation.
"KC is decades late and hundreds of millions of dlloars short on this "rail issue".......it has about as much merit as digging subway tunnels around the city"
If someone can pull off a subway in KC for under $1B, then it'd be a near miracle. Your comparison would work if the status quo involved lots of unused subway rails under the city, like is the case right now.
"why isn't there federal grant money to improve the mass transit that we DO have?"
Why did KCATA lose money this year? A chunk of that involves things that some people dislike, like lobbying and influence in the state and federal government.
I won't dispute how KC was late on this. But putting things off tends to raise the price of those things when you do them. That's reality.
It'd take more details to figure out how much of the plan is realistic and how much will be spent on how much and how many jobs will be available. But there is real appeal and a real opportunity to do more with rail than could ever be done by coordinating all the bus services in the metro area.
Sanders and whoever else has worked on this made a smart decision by trying to get it funded through the Feds before going to the voters. Not to be too arrogant, but the record would suggest that voters only approve of rail projects if they involve a gondola. But it'd never hurt to do a good presentation job for the idea so that it doesn't get clubbed with the claims that it's light rail that'd would involve too much construction and that people should just drive to downtown to see things at the Sprint Center.
.....alright......have Uncle Sam write the check and let's get started.........but what happens when they run out of funds?.........just dip into the city surplus I guess..........that way we'll be able to park our car and catch a ride to the airport........and Bartle Hall..........works for me..............who needs transportation to work or McDonalds?...............I go to the airport at least once a year and Bartle Hall about the same..............th eoNLY way any kind of rail is going to happen here is by it being FREE................the voters here won't pay an extra 3/8 of a cent for law enforcement........but I love the comment that "they'll FIND a way to pay for it if the voters turn them down.................ROFL...................with a "pot o gold" at the end of the rainbow.........but hey......you convinced me............let's go with it..........get Uncle Sam on board..........btw I edited my blog post and deleted some of the stuff you "copied & pasted"......... and replied to......but you didn't bother to read the revised version......but that's OK........I hadn't read the article when I posted the first time......but I DID read it quickly thereafter..........so I'm excited that I won't have to drive to the airport anymore in two years...........that's gotta be worth a billion dollars of our federal tax money........you DO pay federal taxes don't you?................the mass transit WE need is for people to get to work and operate without cars........that'll NEVER happen......I guess one could argue that "some other city will get the money if we don't".........if the billion dollar cost was covered by a grant.......a gift ........not repayable ..........then I would say we "shouldn't pass it up"..........but if the city has to pay it back or match very many funds then I say it's a luxury we can't afford......as you say the proposed plan ISN"T for basic mass transit................to jobs and around the city..........I wonder how far a billion would go if they just split it up amongst our citizens and let us upgrade our cars..............oh yeah.............they already DID that..............lol..........we could do a LOT with a billion dollars to upgrade and expand our current mass transit.............maybe they could buy everybody scooters and we could be like Rome.............just a thought...........I'm sure we would get a deal on 500,000 scooters.........that would save a LOT of fuel and greenhouse gases..........Al Gore probably wouldn't need "Viagra" any more............... ha ha ha..........
eldoggg
........that federal grant money is an example of why we have a national deficit in the stratosphere..........just like the govt's ignorant deal with the helicopters........where they cancelled them when they were in production........and now they have renewed the idea at a cost MANY times what it was originally...........it's too late for any kind of rail here..............that ship sailed decades ago............this is a car city........it will always BE a car oriented city............too spread out for people to ride many bikes and scooters like they do in foreign cities............we can't even get our bus system right.........no financial support because nobody gives a rat's @ss about it...........except the people that "need to migrate around the city"..............lol.................it's all about the handout mentality..............we don't have any funds to put with the "handout"...........that's a self evident truth.............it is funny how history repeats itself though.................over......and over........and over again..........
eldoggg