But, is it constitutional?
Submitted by civil on July 29, 2009 - 12:50pm
A Marine vet posed an interesting question to Sen. McCaskill at her Health Care forum. He was of the opinion that the governments entry into the health care field is unconstitutional, per Article I, section 8. I post section 8 here. Read it and let us know what you think. Is any of the current government actions constitutional, going back to TARP1 and continuing through the auto takeovers, cap and trade and health care overhaul. What do you think?
Article I, section 8.
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
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If there's any merit to it, I'd say we'll be hearing from the constitutional scholars like Ann Coulter and Jonathan Turley. If you're a Libertarian you interpet it one way and if you're a leftie liberal food, shelter, transportation, entertainment ect are inclusive to a persons welfare and should be provided.
When a constitutional question is brought up it brings out some interesting discussion between those that want to interpret the constitution loosely or strictly. In studying the ratification of the constitution the people were distrustful of the constitution. They were afraid that it was not limiting enough. Hence the formation of the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights was formed to help get the needed votes to pass the constitution. The people were distrustful of their government and wanted their rights spelled out in black and white to protect their freedoms. To fully understand the dynamics that were involved in ratifying the constitution the Federalist Papers are a must read. In the limited space of blogs it will be extremely difficult to fully discuss this issue. When discussing this issue I am always reminded of the extreme cost that went into it.
I for one would prefer that we not have a national health care. I have many concerns a couple listed here.
I would prefer that all parties voting on it had at least read it.
I want plenty of time spent on it and and for it not to be rushed through.
I want to make sure the people are getting what they think they are getting!
I have helped pass laws in the past. There are always unforeseen consequences!
In Britain it is my understanding that at age of 59 you no longer qualify for a stint.
In Canada the wait for services can kill you.
With the sheer demographics of the population and the money to fund medicare and social security a train wreck is in the future. The delimma is how much of GDP can you spend on health care and still have a funcitoning economy? And when you get to that % of GDP what do you institute to prevent going over? The answer appears a little more funding from the 'rich folks", a whole lot less in terms of benefits provided, and, I'm sure they'll have a euphimisim for euthansia, but that's the final decision of $$ spent for value received choice by someone on your care. It's an omen that Ted Kennedy, who is the maytr of the Dem Liberal national health care bill, now battling this terrible brain cancer probably would'nt be eligible for treatment under his own bill, but for his personal wealth and he's not on the same plan with the common folk. The class warfare notion is a tollerable concept in terms of what kind of car, how big of house, or what ivy league school you attented, but it's going to get personal in terms of quality of health care for some vs others.
........well dshrout......I must say.........I think EVERY American should be entitiled to internet and cable service........if they're a soda drinkin , cigarette smokin American with a cell phone?........I think they're certainly entitled to complimentary internet and cable.......if they can't afford it............as well as some vouchers for a few Broadway shows...........but hey......that's just me..............lol.............."BUD".........."WEISER"...............(burp).........Elvis is leaving the building in three minutes........10.........9..........8..........7.........6.........5..........4........3.......2.........1.............thank you & good night...........
eldoggg
Don't forget the right to unlimited texting.... while driving.... semis.
Normal
0
It’s funny to listen to everyone spout about drivers, U can tell they never been behind the wheel ……. The average American would be amasized at what drivers do behind the wheel that texting isn’t even in the top ten ROFL…..
Take a leak in a plastic jug ?
Switch drivers at 70mph..
Change a shirt,,
Or a pair of pants,
Get a Bxxx Job, depending on Ur co driver?
Read a map
Argue with dispatch
Carry on a feud on the CB
Change Ur 8 track………ROFL that was for me…..lol
Eat a box of Chicken or Ribs
Take a nap…… ??? LOL
And U don’t want them talking on the phone?
This from a guy who drove ½ million accident FREE miles a year for more the 12 years.
..S.S .Minnow...good afternoon.........ROFL.....so we can safely assume that the recent rash of accidents from texting?........bus......train........wouldn't .........and can't happen to truck drivers?........because they're ALL as good drivers as you mminoe?........I know truck drivers too........and I know about how many hours they used to log........after eating a handful of "mini whites".....or "bennies".........or a big snort of meth.............I'm just saying............I think it's great that a 50ton rig can go down the highway with a sleepless driver eating buffalo wings while taking a leak with his other hand.........into a gatorade bottlle...........never I'm mind a little texting to his gal.......as big of a safety advocate as you were for fireworks?.....it's hard for me to fathom your stance on this..........no offense to any truckers..........my opinion is based SOLEY on my own personal observations as well as what I read and see on the idiot box...............I have never BEEN a trucker........so are you saying that you think it's ridiculous to group truck drivers with the other groups?.....train engineers.........bus drivers.......we already know there have been documented accidents in trains , buses, and cars.........but you think truckers should be exempt?...............I'm wondering if the people hurt in the accidents would agree with you friend.......I'm just saying...........switching drivers at 70mph?........this is a safe practice?.......compared to fireworks?......ROFL........"you can tell we've never been behind the wheel?".........of what?......a tractor trailer or a car?.........sure I've changed 8 tracks while driving.......smoked cigarettes.......rolled cigarettes.......engaged in questionable activities with the other sex.....when I was younger..........eaten burgers.........even taken a leak while in a car.............so does that make me qualified to drive with DOT?........... ha ha ha.........just kidding........I'm hoping your post was "tongue in cheek"............albeit a stretch at best.............
eldoggg
it was totally...Every truck runnin down the road is an accident waitin for a place to happen! ! !
it is amazing they don't have more wrecks than they do, my point was texting is about the safest thing they could prob do? I had to laugh at the level that people don't understand what they are legeslating about???
To an old trucker its sort of funny??
Of course we didn't text we talked, I have never texted, but i've done all the other stuff daily.lol
U just be amazed at how good most truckers are???? it's scary.......
.........ROFL.........duly noted hombre'............
eldoggg
.....between texting truck drivers , train engineers and bus drivers?........not to mention "sexting" by our "utes"..........ROFL...........the "Verizon Network" needs to be more astute............not to mention the poor honeybees that can't find their way home........we'll all be out of food in three years.......but we can order a pizza from Domino's........long as you don't mind a little DNA on ur pizza..............hoo ahh...........
eldoggg
I didn't post this as a vehicle for debate as much as I was interested in reading to what degree the blogoshere would tolerate government intrusion into their lifes. I think it has accomplished its aim. Thanks for all of your input.
It is the Tenth Amendment which states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Several of the States have enacted legislation lately reasserting their sovereignty under the Tenth Amendment. Montana recently enacted a gun law which is expressly designed to test, in the Supreme Court, whether States still have any rights left.
The Feds have extended their powers into places where they are not Constitutionally authorized and continue to eat away at states rights. You can do a little more research here
Complacency is the enemy. Be educated. Be aware. Be involved.
I see nothing in the section 8 or any amendment that gives the congress the power to delve into providing or mandating health care for the populace. Anybody?
.......Barry would just push for an Amendment to be passed ....real quick......before anybody could read it........the country is being ripped apart from within......but seriously...........I hope the "blue dog democrats" will save us in this matter.....we know the Republicans don't support Barry's plan.............one could only HOPE that that there are enough educated elected officials that DO care about this country...........to stop this mad man...............the idea is nobel ........but not practical........we can't pay for it......they're hemmoraging 32 BILLION a year now in Medicaid and Medicare fraud......if they can't stop THAT...how are they gonna run a bigger deal?.................obesity should weigh into health care costs.....I need to lose 50 lbs.....so no hate mail from obese please............it CAUSES diabetes in many.......heart issues......other problems......just like having a ticket should raise your auto insurance........make getting into shape a monetary reward and Americans might have more incentive...........smoking raises life insurance rates.....so why not?..........I believe obesity is the main reason health care is cost prohibitive...........beside fraud and outrageous ambulance chasers.............constant droning of lawyers on TV......looking for medical malpractice suits..........pharmaceutical lobbyists in Washington D.C...............they should cap drug prices........
eldoggg
I have CNN on the monitor behind me all day at work. Sound is turned down, but every now and then I spin around and read the ticker.
About an hour ago, they were headlining that the "Blue Dog Democrats" had come to some sort of "agreement" with the other Democrats.
Oh, like you didn't see that coming! I think their protest was mostly feigned, just to reduce the backlash they're gonna get from their constituents on it. Make it LOOK like they put up a fight.
Blue dogs rolling over.
This expressly gives Congress the power to provide "for the general welfare of the United States," and I'd say health care falls under that for sure.
That phrase is there because this was never meant as an all encompasing list. For example, Section 8 also doesn't day anything about the federal government providing for air traffic control, but I'd definitely say that falls under the general welfare of the United States.
It says "provide for the general welfare of the United States", NOT "provide welfare to everyone in the United States".
The vast majority of those without health insurance right now are illegal aliens. A substantial portion of the rest without health insurance don't have it because, even though they have the money to buy it, don't want it.
I don't want government involved in my health care. I want to keep the insurance that I have now (which will not be possible long-term no matter what Obummer says). I don't want my 80+ year old parents denied health care because they're deemed too old and not cost-efficient. My better half needs knee and shoulder replacements, I don't want him waiting in agonizing pain for years til Uncle Sam says it's ok. It may all be a moot point anyway, because if this thing goes thru as written we may not have hardly any doctors left practising because of the way they'll be paid (or not). Who is going to go through all the cost, time and effort of medical school, residency, etc for pitiful wages???
This so-called "health-care reform" is nothing but a nationalization of nearly 20% of our economy. We already have Government Motors, we don't need "Dr. Sam".
Complacency is the enemy. Be educated. Be aware. Be involved.
"The vast majority of those without health insurance right now are illegal aliens." - TeaPartyKC
Care to cite a source for that little tidbit? I'm guessing you pulled that from a dark, smelly place somewhere behind you.
"I want to keep the insurance that I have now." - TeaPartyKC
Maybe if you'd take you own advice and "Be educated" you'd understand that Obama's health care plan allows you to keep the insurance that you have right now. If you don't believe that, then please cite some information that supports your opinion.
"I don't want government involved in my health care." - TeaPartyKC
I highly doubt that that your 80+ year old parents are using private health insurance right now. If you truly believe the garbage you just spouted, than I'm sure you'll be running down to one of those great American insurance companies to purchase private insurance for your parents, in order to keep them off welfare programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. Please let us all know how caring these corporate insurance companies are toward your request, and how much they will be charging you for that insurance. I'm sure it will be very affordable, and much better than government sponsored programs such as Medicare and Medicaid, that teabaggers like you don't want to raise any tax money for.
- You're correct, "vast majority" was overstating it.. However, at least 25%, and perhaps up to 50% of the uninsured in America are illegal aliens. Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons
- Private insurance not "technically" outlawed, just forced out of business PolitiFact . The items below can all be found in the bill itself
Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your health care benefits for you. You have no choice!
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill – Health care will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise
Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access to individuals finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your banks accounts for election funds transfer
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff plan subsidized for retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange to bring private health care plans under Govt control.
PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private health insurance plans be in the Exchange
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifies Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration your health care!
PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example - Translation for illegal aliens
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals. for The Govt health care plan
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifies benefit levels for Plans. Attn: AARP members - your health care WILL be rationed
PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice
pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monopoly
pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what you can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST automatically enroll employees into the public option plan. NO CHOICE
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for health insurance for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with a payroll of $400k & above who does not provide public option must pay a new 8% tax on all payroll. (that 8% equals the total pay for 1 out of every 12 employees)
pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesn’t provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptabl e helth insurance according to Govt standards will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay)
Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HealthCare Administration (the GOVT employees) will have access to ALL Americans’ financial and personal records.
PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it actually says exactly that.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.
Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - DOCTORS, it doesn’t matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same
PG 253 Line 10-18 DOCTORS-Govt sets value of Doctor's time, Govt is the professions judge, etc. Literally means Govt valuing of humans.
PG 265 Sec 1131 Govt mandates & controls productivity for private health care, pharmacy, health services and health insurance industries
PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs
PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT AT CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable readmissions.
Pg 298 Lines 9-11 DOCTORS, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.
Pg 317 L 13-20 DOCTORS. PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells DOCTORS what & how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand
pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!
Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Rationing. Health care the way Govt b ureaucrats dictate it
Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into THEGovt plan
Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people.
Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - TeleHealth Advisory Committee. Can you say health care and health insurance by phone?
PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations. Think Senior Citizens end of life…Dying is Your Duty to your Nation.
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory! Think Senior Citizens end of life…Dying is Your Duty to your Nation.
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death. Think Senior Citizens end of life…Dying is Your Duty to your Nation.
PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program with orders for end of life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends.Think Senior Citizens end of life …Dying is Your Duty to your Nation.
Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "advanced care planning consultations" will be used frequently as patient’s health deteriorates.Think Senior Citizens end of life…Dying is Your Duty to your Nation.
PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advanced care planning consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the GOVT. Think Senior Citizens end of life…Dying is Your Duty to your Nation.
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The Govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order. Think Senior Citizens end of life…Dying is Your Duty to your Nation.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life. Think Senior Citizens end of life…Dying is Your Duty to your Nation.
Pg 469 – New Community-Based Home Medical Services=Non-profit organizations to support/enforce these end-of-life mandates. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?
Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENTS are specified TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATIONS. One monthly payment to a community-based organization. Protect their street fighters with legislated payment schedule. ACORN.
Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services.
- Yes, my parents have Medicare (which they paid taxes for MANY years to be eligible for.... when someone has PERSONALLY paid for something for years, I wouldn't consider finally reaping the benefits of it to be welfare). They also pay for private insurance (Humana) which covers all of the many things that Medicare does not. The plan they have under Humana is EXCELLENT... neither they nor I have ever had any problems with said private insurance whatsoever.
Complacency is the enemy. Be educated. Be aware. Be involved.
Today medicaid is an expense of the State, under this health bill is this an unfunded mandate to the state from the federal government? Thanks for posting the bill and the commentary. I hope pensive reads it and chooses to have the discussion he says he wants rather than toss more insults. This bill is terribly flawed currently. The whole health system doesn't need trashing in favor of a socialist agenda. The system we have now can be modified.
I toss out insults if a poster meets two criteria:
1 - They spout uncited BS as fact.
2 - They act hypocritically by arguing one point, while their actions are obviously different (e.g. Saying you're opposed to government run health care, while your family personally benefits from Medicare/Medicaid).
Now that Dshrout threw down the health care debate gauntlet, let's roll.
First, I'm operating under the assumption that Dshrout agrees with everything that KCTeabag just said above, because he didn't add anything other than spouting more rhetoric about health care reform being part of the Democrats "socialist agenda."
I guess I'd reply to that by saying, yes, it is a socialist program and the Democrats aren't denying that. But Democrats realize that "socialism" isn't a four-letter word, and that America is the only industrialized nation in the world without socialized health care, entirely explaining why we also have the most EXPENSIVE health care system in the entire world. It's a system that has become unaffordable for many Americans and requires reform. Democrats are offering a solution, while Republicans haven't offered anything but criticism. So, while the current legislation being considered in one of its earliest formats is certainly flawed - and I won't argue otherwise - it's important for the naysayers to stop ignore the FACT that our current system is perfect either, and I would argue it is even more flawed.
Now onto KCTeabag's post. I find this so full of inconsistencies and omitted information that I'd have to spend hours pointing out each instances of how KCTeaparty went to great lengths to distort the legislation by picking and chosing phrases and then discussing them completely out of context.
For example, pointing out that pg. 145 line 15-17 says that "An Employer must automatically enroll employees into the public option plan" leaves out that this is only the case if the other options aren't met.
Also, KCTeabag saying "Cancer patients - welcome to rationing" after citing pg 272 Sec. 1145, is completely ridiculous. What this section actually says is that the government has the right to determine that if the costs being charged to cancer patients at one hospital "exceed those costs incurred by other hospitals" providing the same treatment, the federal government can make an appropriate adjustment to the billing. In other words, if you're a hospital and you've been screwing people by overcharging for the same exact treatment provided elsewhere at a lower cost, you won't be allowed to do that and collect federal subsidies. Yeah, that sounds horrible...
Here's another example: KCTeabag says pg 317 L 13-20 "Tells doctors what & how much they can own." This paragraph is actually part of a larger rule designed to restrict conflicts of interest involving self-referrals and to ensure that the ownership interests hospitals offer to doctors isn't on terms more favorable than those offered to people not in a position to refer patients and generate business for hospitals. By opposing this section, KCTeabag is apparently in favor of maintaining the conflicts of interest for doctors who are sending patients to hospitals needlessly, because it's in their financial self-interest to do so.
I could go on and on pointing out the inconsistencies of that post, but really, the best thing I can do here is encourage people to actually take the time to read this legislation yourself, and then see if you still agree with KC Teabag's assessment of what is in there.
Finally, KCTeabag ends his post with more hypocrisy, saying Medicare/Medicaid aren't welfare, because its something people paid into for years. I ask you now, how is that any different than the socialized health care plan the Democrats are offering AS AN ALTERNATIVE OPTION to normal health insurance, which will still be offered if this reform package becomes law?
Pensive, rather than insults as someone full of BS, did it ever occur to you that you both might be right, it just depends on who's interpeting the health bill, John Conyers said as much yesterday as to why he's not going to read it. His lawyers would need to expalin what he read and would take too long to read.. He's House Judiciary chair. Therein lies the problem. Insurance co aren't very popular and are vogue target in todays climate, but congress has only a 25% approval. Kind of like trading in a car for one just like it. Who you going to complain to when this gets explained to you differently than you thought? The health care Czar? On the medicare thing, BIG difference between government run health care and government subsidized heath care. When the government gets through whittling a large % of the savings to medicare for the new program, what's a tie in plan going to cost? If you can't differentiate between citizens and illegal aliens qualifing for government benefits God help us. It's real hard to discuss this at this point. I don't know how much TARP and stimulous will be spent to buy the votes as the congressional holdouts go 'trick-or-treating' for their vote or the depth of their respective convictions. I do feel this plan, over time, is designed to suck everyone into the black hole of the Government only option. The leadership of the house and senate as well as the left of the party has steadfastly said that.
To clarify, the BS I was referring to was limited to KCTeaparty's statement that "a majority of people without health care are illegal aliens." And BTW, the source KCTeaparty cited afterward personally admits there is no way to know how many illegals are in the country, and therefore a number was just pulled out of thin air.
As for John Conyers, if he really did say he wouldn't read this bill, then he isn't willing to do his job and should resign. If he needs a lawyer to explain the legislation, then he should get one to do it. After all, isn't it the job of Congress to create laws? If he doesn't understand law, then he's apparently in the wrong job.
Yes, I'm saying that about a Democrat, just as I would about a Republican.
- THANK YOU for admitting that this bill is SOCIALIST and that Democrats think socialism is just fine & dandy. Now, will you please give me even one single example of a purely socialist nation that has succeeded?
- Surely even a socialist can recognize that Medicaid is welfare, while Medicare is not??? The people covered under Medicaid have, more often than not, never even paid one dime of taxes to the federal government.... whereas the people covered under Medicare have paid taxes specifically labeled for medicare for their entire working lives and are now reaping the benefits of the premiums they've paid all these years.
- Yes, there are flaws in this country's health care system. However, I don't think you'll find many (if any) instances of someone running off to Canada or some other socialized-medicine country because they can get better care there. Our health care may be expensive, but it is THE BEST.
- What other countries pay for medical care for people who enter their country illegally (except for maybe whatever medical care they might get in jail while awaiting deportation or a firing squad)?
Complacency is the enemy. Be educated. Be aware. Be involved.
Examples of socialist nations that have succeeded: France, Germany, England, Canada, Spain, Sweden, Norway, Italy, Portugal, Japan, ect...
Socialism is not the same as dictator-ruled communism. Socialism is also not the bogeyman that Health Care Reform opponents constantly refer to it as. Socialistic ideals in regard to health care are designed to ensure that it is not only the wealthiest people in a society that afford to receive treatment. In other words, if you're poor or can't get an insurace company to cover you due to a pre-existing condition or any other excuse they may use to deny coverage, you don't have to die alone in a garbage dumpster.
So yes, I'm admitting that this reform package includes some socialistic principles, but that doesn't automatically make it evil.
Yeah, insured American's usually get great treament from our current health care system, but it eventually costs them everything they or their loved ones own, unless they are millionaires.
Maybe people at a Country Club where the wealthy hide out from the real world have never had to run off to Canada or elsewhere for treatment, but believing that no one ever has is truly ignorant. If you want to see examples of people leaving America for health care watch Michael Moore's "Sicko."
As for your point on treatment of illegal aliens, how many Americans travel abroad and get sick in foreign countries? Other countries don't let our citizens die, so why is it OK in your book to let theirs die in our country? Perhaps you feel that way because you don't care about poor Americans dying from lack of health care inside our country's borders, so why would you care about "foreigners?"
Also, please tell me how having people pay their entire lives into goverment run Medicare, and then reaping benefits from the premiums they've paid, is any different at all than socialized medicine.
There is obviously no point whatsoever in trying to have any type of conversation with you because you do not respond directly on point to any topic.
-None of the nations that you mention is purely socialist.
-Socialism = liberals who want to spread misery equally.
- I don't believe that any of the founding fathers would have thought socialism to be acceptable. Apparently only current-day Democrats and avowed members of the Socialist Party think so.
- Gosh, I know PLENTY of people who haven't had health care "costs them everything they or their loved ones own" and they weren't millionaires either. What planet are you living on where this happens to everyone?
- I have no interest whatsoever in watching a movie made by someone who openly hates America. I believe that if he thinks it's such a shi**y country then he might want to move to Cuba. If that's close-minded then so be it.
- I'm sure that when an American gets sick overseas they are asked to pay for it. I'm also sure that there is not another country in the world that will pay for an illegal immigrants normal, everyday healthcare, as America will be doing if this idiotic health-care reform bill is passed.
-Socialized medicine = you get told when, where and what you'll get in the form of health care. Current Medicare = you choose your doctor and get whatever treatment you want (and if it's not covered you're free to pay for it out of pocket or with secondary insurance).
Complacency is the enemy. Be educated. Be aware. Be involved.
Spoken like a true "have." Thanks for showing where the line is drawn on this debate: If you can afford to take the risk of losing your insurance coverage arbitrarily at the hand of the executive at an insurance company whose only motive is profit, then debate against health care reform. If you have no coverage right now because your employer doesn't offer it, you're a small business owner who can't afford it, you're unemployed, or you've ever been denied coverage from an insurance company or had your coverage dropped completely, then you should be in favor of health care reform.
— Every one of the countries in Western Europe and elsewhere that I mentioned is socialistic. They all have several aspects of their society that, "advocate collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods." (Merriam Webster)
— Could I please borrow your time machine, so I can talk to the founding fathers too?
— I know plenty of people who have lost everything thanks to a heartless insurance company. One person I know needed a double lung transplant. He had to sell everything he owned including his wedding ring, declare bankruptcy and then start a fundraiser before he could get the surgery he needed in order to live, all because the insurace company dropped coverage, daring him to sue them with money and time they knew he didn't have. This is the system you think is so great and not in need of reform.
— Of course you would criticize the director of a movie you just admitted never watching. How about citing where Michael Moore has ever said he "hates America." BTW, admitting being closed-minded is the same as admitting being blissfully ignorant.
— I've been digging into the rules related to health care of sick tourists/ foreign nationals in many other countries, and you raise an interesting point here. Of course, because of the sheer number of nations involved here, it is extremely complicated and not something easily boiled down to blog size. But I'm learning it depends quite a bit on what the malady is. If it is something relatively minor - a broken bone, the flu, etc...- most countries with socialized medicine will treat you and send you on your way without a bill. Most also allow foreingers to purchase drugs from their pharmacies - with a prescription - at the much lower prices. However, if you were to suffer congestive heart failure or a similar serious ailment, most will try to staiblize you and send you back to America for treatment. Interestingly, most American health plans don't cover you if you get sick abroad, but require you to purchase supplemental coverage, which basically pays the cost of you getting shipped back home under medical supervision. That said, if a foreigner is knocking on deaths door and has no insurance, I couldn't find any industrialized nation that would turn them away to go die in their streets. So basically, most industrialized nations try to send you home for treatment, but barring that as a possibility, they treat you.
— Socialized medicine = Coverage for all and doctors making health decisions based on medical reasons and not economics; Current health care = gambling that you can sustain lifetime coverage, and greedy insurance executives telling you what care you can receive, basing their decisions on profitability tables.
-You're reading skills are outstanding, Pete... just where did you pick from my writings that I was against health-care reform???? True, I am completely opposed to THIS health care bill, but I have never stated that some health-care reform was not needed.
-And I actually have been without health insurance for a fair portion of my adult life. I've been fortunate to have been fairly healthy during those uninsured periods, but when something happened I either found the money to pay when seen or had to set up payment plans.
- Have socialistic tendencies, Pete, they aren't completely socialist because thay also have large aspects of capitalism, which is the only thing that keeps them from swirling completely down the crapper.
-No need for a time machine, as most of the founding fathers were prolific writers about their thoughts and opinions. You might start with the Federalist Papers. If that's too much effort, here's a short video you can watch.
- Yes, life can be cruel. We used to have actual charities that took care of things like that. Charity used to be "that which was freely given". Now charity is whatever the government can take away from some working slob.
- Yes, I cticize Michael Moore without ever watching his movie, just as I also criticize child molesters whom I've never met. I consider both despicable and someone not worthy of knowing or knowing about.
- Socialized medicine = Coverage for all and doctors making health decisions based on doing what they're told to do by some government committee; Current health care = gambling that you can sustain lifetime coverage, and insurance executives trying to make a profit for their shareholders telling you what care you can receive, basing their decisions on the written terms of the insurance contract they have with you.
Complacency is the enemy. Be educated. Be aware. Be involved.
By all means, please enlighten us with your health care reform plan.
PensivePete?...........I have a couple questions......I believe the current system definitely needs overhaul........32 Billion in fraud?.......I like the idea of people being able to keep whatever health care they have now or want.......but will nationalized health care eventually put THOSE out of business?...........I'm really scared of having to wait for something I need from somebody in Washington D.C .......they ALWAYS waste money too..........they tried to get into the "steel industry" in the 20s?....and it was a disaster.........they lost untold BILLIONS in IRAQ that they don't even know where the money went?.......how can this happen?............I don't know the answer......the status quo needs to be changed but does the current plan (if there REALLY is one) meet that need?..........seems like nobody really reads 1400 pages ....even the talking heads can't really discuss it becaus etHEY don't know specifics.....Obama hasn't told us specifics.....alot of people have ALOT of questions......if the plan is so great?.....why don't the "powers that be"share it with us?...........not being sarcastic......being serious........people are scared........and won't forcing small businesses to provide mandatory health care put alot of them OUT of business?.....in effect accomplishing NOTHING but more unemployment?..............yes......Insuarnca companies ARE greedy and try to cheat good people........but Blue Cross / Blue Shield paid for everything I requested for 10 years.........100%..........some expensive stuff..........right now I'm gambling with no insurance......because I won't afford what they want ......waiting for group coverage..........obesity causes 140 BILLION a year in health care costs......but nobody seems to be addressing this touchy issue........offending constituents with the truth.........but this SHOULD be addressed in the current reformation process........that's MY opinion...........the truth hurts..........now?......whether some of the people can pay for EVERYBODY to have health care is really key here to me............if the govt would get the heck out of Afghanistan and spend that money over here on health care?...........that would be a start..........maybe keep the oil traders from driving up fuel prices so much?.......that would help industries and American's pockets........I'm not as eduacted as you PensivePete about this issue......but those are a common "dogs" observations and questions...........sorry to not be more succint..........
eldoggg